There are few professions more truly glamorous than spice hunting. When you remember that the pursuit of exotic flavours has shaped the history of the world, and that pepper was once more valuable than gold, you might expect spice hunters Ethné and Philippe de Vienne to cultivate a certain professional mystique. Like Richard Branson. You’d think it would be good for – you know, their brand.
What we discovered, as we talked with them over lunch last week, was the surprising opposite: an entirely approachable pair of down-to-earth, lick-your-plate food lovers, driven by an inspiring philosophy of empowerment. They’re eager to make you feel at home, to give you a taste of what’s cooking, to open the vaults and show you the goods, to sit you down and tell you the secret of their success. They don’t want to be glamorous tastemakers, or build an illustrious empire. They want to give you the confidence to trust your own taste-buds, and connect you to the innate sense of wonder that will lead you to exciting discoveries of your own.
You make an important distinction between flavour and taste. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Philippe: The example we always use is you take a lemon, you slice it. You smell the lemon. It comes through your nose. You take the slice, on your tongue. All of a sudden, you’re aware of the acidity of the lemon, and the bitterness of the skin. As you inhale, the smell goes through your nose, that’s flavour. The nose is telling you what the flavour is, not your tongue. Your tongue tells you the taste. Let me put it this way: the sound is too loud on your TV. Do you change the channel? No. You play with the sound, right?
Ethné: Once you understand it’s two different things, you’re fine. And mostly what you stop doing is just adding salt because you think that’s what’s missing. When you realize it’s probably not a taste issue, but a flavour issue, then you’re going to go start adding the right things.
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“I defy you to find a piece of butter that is going to be as good as 25 cents’ worth of the best pepper.” |
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Philippe: You’re doing a fish recipe. You taste it, you’ve already got some wine in there, maybe a little vinegar, You taste it, the acidity is fine, the salt and pepper … ok. It needs … lemon! But if I put lemon in there, I’m going to make it too sour. I’ll put lemon grass, which is only the aroma of lemon, without its acidity. And usually, that does the trick.
Spices are the greatest taste and flavour modifiers that a cook has. Because they are easy to handle, and they are inexpensive. Even our expensive spices, you put a dollar of pepper in, you grind it, you put it in a dish for four people. That’s 25 cents per person. I defy you to find a piece of butter that is going to be as good as 25 cents’ worth of the best pepper.
The "Epices de cru" spices are packed and labelled by hand.
As people who are sourcing products from all around the world, what’s your take on the local food movement?
Philippe: The hundred mile diet is really about knowing where your food comes from, and in that respect I guess we are part of this movement. We know where our spices come from. We know most of our suppliers by name. The woman who sends us this pepper is called Helen. We know how things are being grown.
Ethné: This is nothing new in Montréal. We’ve always asked questions about our food and wanted to know where it comes from. In Quebec, and particularly in Montréal, we’re way ahead of that wave. Look at the Jean-Talon market. It’s been there for 75 years. It’s one of the last urban markets in North America where farmers still sell their wares. There are new farmers’ markets emerging everywhere now, but this one has been there and survived all this time.
That’s a testament to the food culture that exists here in Montreal.
Ethné: The history speaks for itself. This is what this town has always been about.
Philippe: It’s not about trends. And it’s not about snobbish appeal, it’s about quality and honest food. Look at the restaurants here. The chefs actually cook in the kitchens. You go to Toqué to taste Normand Laprise’s food, and he is there, in the kitchen.
Ethné: And there’s not a lot of nonsense at restaurants, in terms of waiting lists and prices, because people here just don’t stand for it. We’ll just go somewhere else. It’s not about being in the latest, trendiest place.
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“It’s really very basic: good cuisine is not boring. There should be a balance of different tastes and flavours.” |
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Do you have a favourite type of cuisine?
Philippe: Good cuisine.
What makes good cuisine?
Philippe: You eat it. You enjoy it, and you want more. It’s really very basic: good cuisine is not boring. When by the sixth bite you’re bored – this is not good food. There should be a balance of different tastes and flavours. The harmony should be within the dish, or the plate, or the meal. It should be between what you are drinking and what you are eating. That’s what constitutes good cuisine.
I guess you could say good cooking really engages you.
Philippe: Yes. People have forgotten how to use their taste buds, which is not surprising when you see all the crap that’s in mass-produced food. When we do seminars for our spices, we say to people, smell a spice, tell us what it reminds you of, and how you think you’ll use it. We always do it with tonka. Very few people know tonka – usually 100% of the people have never heard of it. And then we say – What does it remind you of? You get all kinds of really strange answers. The first thing you have to tell people is don’t be shy. They’re scared to tell you what their impressions are. They’re scared because they may be wrong.
And smell is so personal. So related to memory.
Philippe: And when we ask what those memories are, there is no right or wrong answer. And what’s wonderful is that with tonka, you get a group of thirty people, and we tell them, smell it, and don’t talk to each other. We really want this to be a blind test. Then somebody says – Oh, it reminds me of almonds. Or, oh, vanilla. Or tobacco, or the smell in a soap or perfume.
Ethné: Because it’s used by the cosmetics and soap industries. We’ve had people tell us it smells like Barbie. And we tell them, yes. There are many plastics that smell like this. And they say – okay, so my nose isn’t so crazy after all.
Tonka bean (left) and Eight Pepper Blend (right).
Philippe: So we ask them, where would you put this tonka? And someone says – Well, I would put it in a custard, or a rice pudding. And the other people start saying, yeah, yeah, yeah! And then I say, imagine the following recipe: take a quarter pound of butter, slice four apples, and sauté them. Then you add a little bit of tonka, and a cup and a half of maple syrup and boil it for three minutes, and you’re going to put that on your French toast. And they all go – YEAH! Excuse me, people, five minutes ago, none of you had ever heard of this spice. No one had ever tasted it, and now you’re dying to try it.
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“The one that’s the best is the one you like. You decide what you like.” |
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Well, you help them see it. Your expertise is inspiring.
Ethné: So we all have this capacity. And once you give people that confidence to go for it, you know what? They’re unstoppable. What the industry has done is exactly the opposite. They have totally destabilized people. So now they are like zombies. And we’re just shaking them, and telling them – Listen, you have the capacity.
Philippe: We have fourteen or fifteen kinds of black peppers in the store. And people say – I want the best. And we say – Well… and pull out the tray of samples, and tell them – The one that’s the best is the one you like. You decide what you like. Most people are so happy. You can see it in their face. They pause for a minute and then say – Of course! All of a sudden. Yes. I have the power. I can decide.
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“We like to just shake the tree and help people remember who they are.” |
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Ethné: It is about me! [laughs] Once people realize this expertise that they have themselves, they no longer need our advice. They can make up their minds for themselves. We like to just shake the tree and help people remember who they are. People from Quebec tell us they don’t know anything about spices. Bullshit. Just because you have forgotten your history and what your grandmother used to cook, don’t look at me just because I’m black and tell me, you know – On connaît pas ça nous autres. Well, vous autres, vous avez oublié. (”Our people don’t know about this kind of thing. Well, people, I think you forgot.”)
We did this very thing, walked into your store and said we want your best black pepper. We walked out with a wild pepper from Madagascar that we’ve used in everything from salmon tartare to pumpkin pie.
Ethné: Have you tried the new green pepper? The New Tribal Green? Hang on, I’m going to go get some.
Early Harvest Tribal Green Pepper Harvested by the aboriginal inhabitants of the Cardamom mountains.
Philippe: It’s an early-harvest, high altitude pepper, one of these ancient varieties that are semi-wild because I’m sure that over the centuries the vines have crossed themselves with cultivated varieties. We bring them to co-ops to have them dehydrated to make green pepper corns. Last year, after four years of going there, we asked – what happens if you harvest them really young?
What’s special about early-harvest?
Philippe: The younger pepper is hotter, harsher, more vegetal, whereas when you go to the end of the harvest, when the fruit is ripe, it tastes fruitier, and its hotness is more of a slow warmth in your mouth. Sometimes pepper like that is sold as red pepper. Even though it’s black. It’s harvested when it’s “red”.
Ethné returns with the green pepper and we taste it.
Amazingly bright and soft, and crunchy like popcorn!
Ethné: Yeah, it’s very light in terms of weight, because the plant is so young. And in terms of tradition, which says the more it weighs, the more it’s worth, this idea of an early harvest pepper was going against the grain.
Ethné takes a minute to open the safe and bring out a jar of Iranian saffron. When we laugh about the security measure, she reminds us that it sells for $8000 a kilo. It smells winey and leathery, and ironically, of freshly printed money.
How did you get into the business of importing spices?
Philippe: We’d been in the catering business for 25 years and were fed up. And we’d so often had trouble finding good spices here in Canada, which is essentially a dumping ground for exporters, the bottom of the barrel in terms of quality. We figured, hey we can make a nice little spice business. It will be nice. We can retire from catering. It will be a nice little business. We’ll have an income. We won’t have to work so hard. We’ll travel…. We have 33 employees now. We never had 33 employees when we were caterers. And this is so much more fun. When we think about the number of people we’re touching, over there, and here…
You’re helping people around the world do what they do best. It’s much more than the 33 people who work for you here.
Ethné: And we love the people. We’re on tour right now, promoting the new book, and people are just nuts about our spices! And the people over there are nuts about the stories we tell them. And they really love the fact that we love their products. They’re extremely proud to know how valuable it is to us, what they’re producing.
Philippe: Our business philosophy is we love the genius of the “and”, and hate the tyranny of the “or”. People say that when you have a business, if you want to make profit, you can’t really have values.
Ethné: Or if you have a store, you can’t decorate it because that’s not what people want. We say no. You can make money, and decorate the store. You’ve got to find a way to do both. And inform people, and build those relationships, and make a profit, and be happy.
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“We love what we do. We work seven days a week. And it’s a good life. It’s a real life.” |
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Philippe: Traditionally, the “and” doesn’t work. It’s not a simple solution. It’s a fine line you’re walking all the time. But the “and” is really what we look for.
And you’re proving that it’s successful as a business model.
Ethné: It’s successful for us because this is what motivates us and makes us happy. I’m sure some people are looking at us, going – They’re completely off their rockers. People ask us all the time – Why do you work so hard? Because that’s what we do. We love what we do, so this working hard is just living hard. We work seven days a week. And it’s a good life. It’s a real life. This is about a community and building relationships. We’ve never lost sight of that, which is why people say we’re successful. And it’s not just the monetary aspects of being successful. It’s about going to sleep at night, and being able to sleep really well, and being happy to wake up the next morning and get going again. That’s very, very big in our world.
This story is truly inspiring!
I wish you all the best guys!
Thank you for opening this dialogue. I was impressed by the language used at the end of the piece regarding the “genius of the ‘and’” — it reminded me of Homi Bhabha declaring, “I am looking for the join… I want to join” in his discussion of the space of collaboration and interaction. Now, of course, I’m going to have to get myself to Montreal to visit their store. Brilliant.
Jon, I’m thinking of bringing a bunch of salts and peppers to the family reunion in May and getting everyone to do a blind tasting, like Dad used to do. Glad you enjoyed this – it was fun to do and there will be lots more.
It’s a good life indeed… great tribute that there is a living to be made for these artists!
a wonderful post
Well, I’ve been to their spice store in the Jean-Talon market and it truly is a spice wonderland! I was completely mesmerized by the selection and the friendliness of their staff.
There’s no spice here that you won’t find and many that I’d never seen before. The sincerity of their business philosophy really shines through in the store.
I wish them the best of success!
I’m incredibly pleased to read this article. I had seen the spices in Montreal and was debating on whether or not to buy them. Now that I’ve read this article and understand their commitment to flavor and quality, I’m definitely going to stock up the next time I’m there. I also appreciate their comments on what makes good food. Thank you for sharing this interview.
Je les aime d’amour! Those poeple are great, beautiful and a necessity!